Norman Lear, the groundbreaking TV producer and writer, died Tuesday at the age of 101. He revolutionized primetime television with a string of hits, dominating the airwaves in the 70s and 80s, and showcased political and social issues of the day in a way not done before. Rob Reiner, one of the stars of “All in the Family,” joined Jeffrey Brown to discuss Lear’s legacy.
Amna Nawaz:
Norman Lear, the groundbreaking TV producer and writer, has died at the age of 101.
He revolutionized prime-time television with a string of hits dominating the airwaves in the ’70s and ’80s, including “All in the Family,” “The Jeffersons,” “Maude,” and more. And he featured political and social issues of the day in a way not done before.
Jeffrey Brown has a look back at his legacy for our arts and culture series, Canvas.
Jeffrey Brown:
It was a show, a character, a voice, a style that changed television history.
Carroll O’Connor, Actor:
I didn’t have no million people out there marching and protesting to get me my job.
Jean Stapleton, Actress:
No, his uncle guy it for him.
Jeffrey Brown:
The 1970s sitcom “All in the Family” broke the norms of prime-time TV by dealing with hot-button issues.
Rob Reiner, Actor and Director: God? What God?
Jeffrey Brown:
Through the divisions playing out in the home of the Bunker family.
Carroll O’Connor:
What did you mean by, “What God?”
Rob Reiner:
We just don’t see any evidence of God. That’s all.
Sally Struthers, Actress:
That’s right, daddy.
Carroll O’Connor:
“That’s right, daddy.”
Norman Lear, Screenwriter and Film Producer: My God, that’s me and my dad.
Jeffrey Brown:
In a 2014 interview, Norman Lear told me the crass conservative Archie Bunker, played by Carroll O’Connor, was inspired by his own father.
Norman Lear:
My dad called me a meathead dead from the neck up.
Carroll O’Connor:
I am tuning you out, meathead.
Norman Lear:
And he used to yell at me that I was the laziest white kitty ever met. And I would say, why would you put down a race of people to call me lazy?
Jeffrey Brown:
Their shows addressed race, feminism, even, in “Maude,” abortion.
Adrienne Barbeau, Actress:
There’s only one sensible way out of this. You don’t have to have the baby.
Bea Arthur, Actress:
Well, what do I do, trade it in for a volleyball and “Let’s Make a Deal”?
Jeffrey Brown:
They stirred controversy at times and attracted enormous audiences, up to 50 million viewers a week.
Norman Lear:
The very first “All in the Family.”
Jeffrey Brown:
And Lear fought for his vision. He told me how the network wanted to cut a line in the very first episode of “All in the Family” that hinted at his daughter, Gloria, and husband, Michael, played by Sally Struthers and Rob Reiner…
Rob Reiner:
You’re early.
Jeffrey Brown:
… having sex in the house as the parents returned from church.
Carroll O’Connor:
11:10 on a Sunday morning.
Jeffrey Brown:
But Lear didn’t back down.
Norman Lear:
I saw very clearly in that instant that, if that silly little — if I lost that silly little battle, I would never win another one.
Jeffrey Brown:
For 11 consecutive years, at least one of Norman Lear’s shows placed in prime-time’s top 10. In 1980, he founded the nonprofit People For the American Way to counter the rising influence of the Christian right in the Moral Majority movement.
Lear received many honors and awards throughout his life, including two Peabodys, the National Medal of Arts, and, in 2017, a Kennedy Center Honor for lifetime artistic achievement. That same year, he offered a Brief But Spectacular take on the “NewsHour,” recalling how he dealt with having eight shows at once on the air at the height of his career.
Norman Lear:
There is stress, and there is joyful stress. The stress I was under was altogether joyful. It ended with 240 live people sitting in an audience laughing. Go beat that. It all added time to my life.
Jeffrey Brown:
Norman Lear passed away in his sleep last night at his home in Los Angeles surrounded by his family.
And joining us now is Rob Reiner, of course, one of the stars of “All in the Family.” He would go on to act in films such as “Sleepless in Seattle” and “The Wolf of Wall Street,” and gained further prominence as a director of such films as “This Is Spinal Tap” and “A Few Good Men.”
Rob Reiner, so good of you to join us.
And, first, our condolences at the loss of someone I know is very important to you.
We talk now, looking back, at how everything changed at a certain moment. You were there at that moment. Did it feel like everything was changing?
Rob Reiner:
Well, no.
We were — we had a show that we thought was going to be canceled after — I don’t know, after three episodes or something. I don’t know. CBS put it on with a big disclaimer, saying, no, you can’t watch this show. We don’t want to have anything to do with it. We don’t even know how it got on the air. But if you want to watch it, watch it.
We thought it would last a few episodes and then it would go away. And then, over the time, it caught on. And people started watching it. And it became the biggest show on television for a long time.
Jeffrey Brown:
What did Norman Lear have that allowed him to do what he did, to mix real life into the sitcom format?
Rob Reiner:
He had — can I say this on PBS? He had balls.
Rob Reiner:
This guy had a strength within him. I mean, you’re talking about a man who flew 57 bombing missions over Nazi Germany during World War II.
So, the fights that he had with censors and with the executives, that was small potatoes. He had his convictions. He had his ideas. And he was going to present them. And he did it. He did it in a great way. And he got laughs at the same time.
We had Mike and Archie fighting about every conceivable issue. Many of them are still relevant today, racism and guns and sexuality and all of that. But he did it with humor and with grace. And I’m going to miss him terribly. This has been a very hard day for me.
And I got to say, to be honest, I’m glad I’m getting to talk to you and other people in the press, because it keeps me from crying, to be honest with you. He was like a second father to me. I was very lucky to have him and my dad, two great role models. And I got a lot from both of them.
But, from Norman, I got this idea that you could use your celebrity, you could use your fame, and you could do something good with it. And I took that to heart, and I have done things with my celebrity that I probably wouldn’t have done it had I not had that path.
And I got to say, this — it’s so strange to me. You had a guest on right before, Tim Alberta, who talks about…
Jeffrey Brown:
Yes.
Rob Reiner:
Yes.
Jeffrey Brown:
No, I’m sorry. Go ahead. We had Tim Alberta on.
Rob Reiner:
Well, he was talking about the separation of church and state and how we are seeing the rise of Christian nationalism.
And I have just finished the documentary called “God & Country,” which is all about the rise of Christian nationalism. And that’s the very thing that Norman Lear started when he started People For the American Way.
Jeffrey Brown:
Yes.
Rob Reiner:
The idea was that this is America. This is the Constitution. It’s in the Constitution three times. It’s not — there’s no argument about the separation of church and state. We fought so that we could have religious freedom in this country or no religion at all.
Jeffrey Brown:
I did want to ask…
Rob Reiner:
This upsets me…
Jeffrey Brown:
Yes.
Rob Reiner:
… to know that we’re moving in a direction away from what he wanted and what we all should be striving for.
Jeffrey Brown:
Well, Rob Reiner, we only have about less than a minute.
I did want to ask you about, he did — this was of a piece, right, his life and his work, his politics, his social advocacy, but also entertaining people.
Very briefly, how do you see his legacy?
Rob Reiner:
His legacy will be, not only did he entertain people, but he got them talking.
We were on television at a time when there was only 200 million people in the country, and there were 40, 45 million people having a shared experience. You couldn’t tape it. You had to watch it when it was on. And so we put these issues out there and we had people talking.
Now that discussion has gone away. We’re all in these silos. We don’t talk to each other, and we’re seeing the rise of the very thing he fought his life for, is against fascism and to preserve democracy. And we see this fascism starting to creep back in.
And, this election, we’re going — Norman would want me to be saying this, which, is if you want fascism, you vote for Trump. If you want democracy, you will vote for Biden. It’s that simple, and it’s that real.
Jeffrey Brown:
All right, combining all these things to the end for you.
Rob Reiner on the life and legacy of Norman Lear, thank you very much.
Rob Reiner:
Thanks for having me.
Geoff Bennett:
Norman Lear was one of the giants. What a life.
Amna Nawaz:
What a life.
Our thoughts are with his family and friends.
