(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
LINDA HOLMES, HOST:
After two seasons of the successful series “Bridgerton,” Netflix is already ready for a spinoff. The new series, “Queen Charlotte: A Bridgerton Story,” dives back into the past of the monarch who has frightened and blessed our prior “Bridgerton” heroes. It explores her long marriage to King George III, the way her racial identity affects her experience and her country and her early relationship with her dear friend Lady Agatha Danbury. It both is and is not like the “Bridgerton” we know. I’m Linda Holmes. And today we’re talking about “Queen Charlotte: A Bridgerton Story” on POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR.
Joining me today is Christina Tucker. She’s the co-host of the podcast “Wait, Is This A Date?” Welcome back, Christina.
CHRISTINA TUCKER: What up, fam?
HOLMES: Also here is podcast producer and film and culture critic Cate Young. Welcome back, Cate.
CATE YOUNG: Hi – wonderful to be back again.
HOLMES: So “Queen Charlotte: A Bridgerton Story” brings back Golda Rosheuvel as Queen Charlotte in the same time period as the previous “Bridgerton” seasons, but it also flashes back to the dawn of her romance with King George III. In this part of the story, she’s played by India Amarteifio. Brought from Germany to be his wife, Charlotte is instantly attracted to young George, played by the very handsome Corey Mylchreest. But it becomes clear to her that George is hiding something. If you know the history from which this story is loosely adapted, it won’t surprise you to learn that this has a lot to do with challenges to George’s mental health, which he’s trying very hard to hide.
At the same time, we also meet the young Lady Danbury, played by Arsema Thomas, who will, of course, grow into the woman we know played by Adjoa Andoh. Lady Danbury is in an unhappy marriage, but she sees the possibility that the world may open up for her at least a little as Queen Charlotte arrives. We move back and forth a bit between the young versions of these characters navigating their early lives and the older ones who are looking back on what they did and did not do. Queen Charlotte is also trying to tend to her family and figure out who will eventually assume the throne given that she does not think much of any of her 13 children and there’s not an obvious legitimate heir. This is a six-episode series. It’s streaming on Netflix now.
Christina, what did you think of “Queen Charlotte: A Bridgerton Story”?
TUCKER: You know, when this was announced, I was like, oh, we don’t need that. Like, I’m all set. Like, as much as I know Shonda will continue to push the swirl agenda on us…
(LAUGHTER)
TUCKER: …Until the end of time, I was kind of like, we can kind of just let this go, I think. I don’t really think we’re clamoring as a people for this. And I was, at the same time, still like, you know, they buried that reveal that this marriage had fixed the nation as far as race relations go, mostly.
HOLMES: Right.
TUCKER: So I was a little interested to see what they were going to do with that. It’s like a combination of interest and dread. And I do think still – I’m kind of like, I don’t know that we required this as a people. It is more interesting than I thought it was going to be, and it feels more like a character study. Like, it does not feel like a romance in the way that the first two seasons of “Bridgerton” are a romance, but it does kind of feel like a character study of this woman, this marriage and kind of, like, loneliness in older women at the same time, which is pretty interesting. So I think it has some fun and interesting parts to it. And I think that they tackled the racial divide/implications in a way that is interesting and also fitting with the “Bridgerton,” like, kind of glossy, shiny, doesn’t really get too deep into it, but there are a lot more conversations than I thought there would be about it. I was hesitant, but I’m coming out pro. I’m still not sure it needs to exist, but if it does, I’m pro.
HOLMES: All right. That makes sense. I’ll buy that. Cate, what did you think?
YOUNG: To be frank, I didn’t like it. I just didn’t like it. I got to the final episode, and it’s an hour and a half. And I saw the runtime, and I thought, why? Why is this happening to me? I almost had the opposite response to Christina, where, when it was first announced and I saw the trailer, I was really excited. I was like, this looks fun. They’re dancing. They’re doing violin covers of pop songs. It’s extremely up my alley. And then I started watching the series, and it just lagged. I never once got the feeling that this series needed to exist. I don’t think that I got enough out of this character that I needed an entire new TV show about her. I really enjoy her character, and I enjoyed watching Queen Charlotte both in her younger and older iterations, but I felt like both storylines didn’t really do anything for me. And I think the bouncing back and forth between them made them each feel weaker, and I wasn’t engaged at all. I just couldn’t find anything to hold on to.
HOLMES: Yeah. You know, it’s interesting because I came out sort of firmly mixed on this show in terms of my responses. I felt like there were some things that I really liked. I liked the stuff that Christina talked about with kind of older women talking about loneliness, friendship, how they feel about sex, how they feel about being widowed, how they feel about living alone. I did really like some of those elements. I did not particularly take an interest in the Queen Charlotte needs to find an heir. You know, you meet her as this young woman who’s very engaging and very smart and funny and sharp. Why are all of her children doofuses? Like, I wasn’t quite sure that that washed for me. So I didn’t care for that part of it.
I think on the romance side, the thing that’s interesting is I was so into their initial meeting. I think the initial meeting between young Charlotte and young George is incredibly charming. Look. If you like a symmetrical British man…
(LAUGHTER)
HOLMES: …He is a very handsome, symmetrical British man.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, “QUEEN CHARLOTTE: A BRIDGERTON STORY”)
COREY MYLCHREEST: (As King George III) I have absolutely no intention of helping you.
INDIA RIA AMARTEIFIO: (As Queen Charlotte) I’m a lady in distress. You refuse to help a lady in distress?
MYLCHREEST: (As King George III) I refuse when that lady in distress is trying to go over a wall so that she does not have to marry me.
HOLMES: And I was immediately like, yes, this is a “Bridgerton” man that I can be deeply into. I love him. But after that, he sort of retreats from the story. And it turns out to be, you know, intentional, and there’s thought behind it. But I did feel like, you know, there’s a long period – and I’m talking about multiple episodes – where you aren’t really getting to know him very much. It’s so funny to me because there is such an established “Bridgerton” scene of the man suddenly, explosively being like, I must have you. I cannot breathe in your presence. And they’ve done it essentially the same way in all three series. And I love it because they still do it, and they always will give you that. And I think the scene like that in this is swoony and romantic, and I get it.
I do have, always, qualms about trying to mix swoony, hot, sexy romance with what is a pretty excruciating experience of mental illness. It is very hard to avoid mixing up, how does love make you feel better and more yourself? How does love give you confidence and strength? But at the same time, falling in love is not going to fix whatever is wrong with you. I think, you know, because the real King George, who – they are very clear that this is not the real King George. It is adapted from King George. But I think because the real King George – people still go back and forth about what exactly his issues may have been, I think they’re hesitant to define his illness here, which, of course, is realistic in the sense that people wouldn’t have had the same understanding of it during this time as they would now.
TUCKER: Yeah.
HOLMES: But, like, a lot of the time it seems like anxiety attacks. But then it also turns into other issues. So I’m not sure they have a firm hand on what they’re portraying. I wound up feeling really weird about it. I do share Christina’s sense that – like, I appreciated the fact that they’ve kind of doubled back to question this idea that, like, the queen is a woman of color; therefore, this is an effortlessly multiracial society, which is sort of what the attitude was in Season 1.
I appreciated the fact that they go back and they sort of talk about what this would have been like for somebody like Lady Danbury, how she was feeling as a young Black woman and how this potentially affected her. I appreciated the fact that they made it clear that everybody didn’t just immediately say, like, that’s great, you know? We love and welcome her. There’s just a lot going on. And I feel so bad about saying this, but, like, there was a part around, like, the fourth or fifth episode when I was like, I just don’t know if I want “Bridgerton” to be, like, this much of a bummer. Like, I don’t know if I want “Bridgerton” to be this heavy.
TUCKER: Yeah (laughter).
HOLMES: It’s so sad in a bunch of places. Like…
TUCKER: Yeah.
HOLMES: You’re seeing the grimness of what trying to treat him looked like. It’s – I had such mixed feelings. I just did.
TUCKER: Yeah. I just also think, like, even knowing what we know of George in the first two seasons of “Bridgerton,” like, it even – making that, like, their first experience, getting to know each other and having that really charming banter about if he’s a troll and, oh, surprise; he’s the king – and it’s very charming. And you’re still just like, well, that’s sad ’cause I know that’s not going to last. Like, whatever happens here, this is not how they end up. Like, they end up with her being alone with her, you know, pack of fail children, who are just absolutely flopping left and right. It does make it kind of, like, oh, dark tragedy “Bridgerton” in a way that I’m like, is that what we wanted as viewers? I don’t know. I don’t know that that’s what people are clamoring for.
HOLMES: Bummer “Bridgerton.” I’m telling you.
YOUNG: Yeah. And I also don’t love that that comes with the arc that is centered on the Black female character. I think with respect to the mental health stuff, it’s really frustrating for me because I think a lot of shows do this where they want them to be struggling with something, but they don’t want to offend anyone, so they don’t name it. But then it ends up being coded as a bunch of different things, and then it becomes, like, five times as offensive as it might have been if you’d just said what it was.
And I think with regard to the, you know, quote-unquote, “treatments” that he undergoes, I mean, I don’t think it would surprise anyone to learn that they are quite barbaric given the time period that they are living in. But I did look it up, and it appears to be that he had what we would currently consider bipolar disorder. Without speaking out of turn, I’m pretty sure that’s not what that looks like. Despite the fact that they haven’t named it, it’s the “Big Bang Theory” problem…
TUCKER: Yeah.
YOUNG: …Where you either say what they have and you handle that and you deal with the symptoms that they would have if they had that or you do what they’ve done now and kind of leave it vague so that it just kind of is broadly not OK to treat people with mental illness that way. It muddies things a little bit for me because, to your point, Linda, we don’t really get to spend a lot of time learning about him. There’s one episode where we kind of learn his backstory, but instead of me feeling like I got to know him more, I ended up feeling like it was just a retread of stuff we’d already seen. It made it hard for me to engage with him.
I think that he is – I think that he’s a fantastic actor, and I agree that their meet cute is absolutely adorable, but I never really got the sense that they felt anything for each other. To me, the only time when I felt like they had real chemistry was during the sex scenes. I think that those worked well, and I think the show does a very good job of making those feel both sexy and romantic. But there’s a point later on in the series where she is trying to get him to come back to himself, essentially, and she says, you know, I love you. And I thought to myself, since when? I mean, and I obviously know that that’s kind of, you know, at the root of all of this. Everyone’s falling in love. That’s the whole “Bridgerton” way. But there was no indication to me that that was ever happening.
HOLMES: Yeah, yeah.
YOUNG: I would not have known they were in love if they hadn’t told me. To me, that’s where this kind of falls apart. I was actually really interested in all of the Hanover line stuff just because I happen to be into royals. But there’s a whole lot of drama that could have been mined from that particular scenario, and I feel like, instead, we ended up getting half of that story and half of the young story, and together they don’t make up anything substantial.
TUCKER: Yeah. I think there was so much space to explore in the present-day storyline that they kind of fumble the ball on a little bit, especially towards the end. I think there is so much interesting stuff with the kids and with what’s going on with Lady Danbury and Lady – and Violet Bridgerton. And I think they kind of just – at the end, they’re like, well, and this is over now. And I would have loved maybe a little less exploration of this mental health crisis that no one’s really sure what to do with anyway. And if we’re going to have this, you know, present-day timeline, we could pull more focus to that and maybe leave the – what is it? – the fourth episode that is basically just a retelling of the days we have seen…
HOLMES: Right, right. Yeah.
TUCKER: …But from George’s perspective, is effective at parts, but, again, because it is so long, it is like, right, yeah, I remember. Like, we could have set this up and kind of, you know, shown this one or two flashbacks and kind of focused our attentions elsewhere. And I think that was kind of a missed opportunity. I don’t know that the mental health stuff – I mean, it’s not perfect in no way, shape or form. But I think because it is historically debated what he was suffering with and because there’s no way they would have been like, King, you’re suffering from anxiety, here is some Klonopin…
HOLMES: Right.
TUCKER: …Have a nap, have a lie-down – the kind of muddiness around that bothers me a little bit less, even though it is always one of those tropes that I’m just like, well, and here we are again.
HOLMES: That’s the trick because, like, part of it feels like they’re in the dark about what’s going on with him. But they would have been in the dark, right? And I never want to imply that, like, because he’s mentally ill, the romance can’t work or whatever. It’s just that, like, it’s so grim. And I think there’s a tonal issue with sort of what this show is. And, obviously, as you guys were saying, this is sort of dark “Bridgerton.” It’s a different tone, but it still is what it is.
You still have the violin, you know, the string versions of pop songs. You still have – not as much Julie Andrews, but you have a bit of Julie Andrews doing the kind of – the Whistledown stuff. And trying to mix that with something that’s really tragic, it’s hard to make that work, as opposed to the story of these older women looking back on their lives and their choices, which has a poignancy and a longing that I think is easier to mix with the rest of the tone here, as opposed to, like, this woman that you’re coming to appreciate as a character is going to spend much of her life feeling terribly lonely and alienated from her children. That’s a tough thing to integrate with the romance idea. I don’t know. What do you think, Cate?
YOUNG: I wish we could have just split these stories up, honest to God.
TUCKER: Yeah.
YOUNG: I think the stuff with young Charlotte is interesting to the extent that it is nice to see where this character that we like comes from. But I think that the tone of Golda’s performance in the original series, it does not quite belie the tone of the performance that we get in this series. In the original two seasons, she’s very much someone who is largely amused by the people around her and who kind of just wants to mind her business, you know, smoke her snuff and carry on in social whatevers. But I think in this series, she’s dealing with some real issues.
You know, these children were alive in the first two seasons. She would have been dealing with this issue then, too. And you got no hint of that. You know, there’s no indication that her line is coming to an end, that she’s only got this one legitimate heir, who, you know, dies at the beginning of the series. There’s so much happening that it feels like nothing really gets the attention it deserves. And I do think that the tonal balance is a little off. For me, the only real interesting part was the stuff with Lady Danbury with titling because I feel like…
TUCKER: Yeah.
YOUNG: …That was fun to kind of consider the things that would have happened in a circumstance like that. But that’s such a small part of the series, and I actually might have preferred, looking at this now, a series about Lady Danbury.
TUCKER: Yeah. That is very much where I kind of ended up because, I think, a lot of the young Charlotte stuff does end up feeling like Lady Danbury’s story anyway. They become so close. They – she does have this kind of, like, mentor and, like, guiding position in young Charlotte’s life. And I think, you know, we get to watch her dealing with the titles, dealing with the dowager princess, and I think that stuff is so fascinating, and she’s so charming and…
HOLMES: Yes.
TUCKER: …it must be said, one of the most beautiful people I’ve ever seen in my entire life.
YOUNG: Correct.
TUCKER: Really kind of just, like, a staggering beauty happening there. Towards the end, I kind of was like, well, maybe this just could have been about Lady Danbury. That would have been fine with me, too.
YOUNG: There’s a part in Season 2 of “Bridgerton,” she tells one of these girls – I want to say the main character, whose name I have forgotten – she tells her that she has earned the right to be old and single, essentially. And we get the backstory of that in this series.
TUCKER: Right.
YOUNG: And that is the part that I find interesting because, at the time, I thought it was such a fun little tidbit of, like, I get to do what I want because I’ve already done all the things that I’m obligated to do. You don’t have that option. And I think now that we have seen what those obligations, in fact, look like, including some very unsatisfying sex, it gives her character a lot more color. And I agree with Christina that, I think, coming at this same story from her perspective, from someone who was elevated to this position completely out of nowhere, who becomes this close confidant of the queen of England is a much more fascinating position to me than simply a love story that kind of goes awry almost immediately.
HOLMES: I agree with both of you about Lady Danbury. And I think that when you make a prequel series like this – and, you know, we started this conversation talking about, like, what is this for? When you make a prequel series like this, I think, ideally, what can be really satisfying is if you can achieve a sense of, you know this really interesting person? This is how she got that way. And I think with Lady Danbury, it works very well. Because of everything that Cate was just talking about, you see this is how she became fiercely independent, single despite the fact that she cares deeply about the importance of love and marriage, you know, advocating for the love of people in her life, even though she is happily single and kind of has figured out a way to navigate the social world around her in a way that few people have.
YOUNG: Right.
HOLMES: I think with the queen, both the old and young performers here have wonderful moments. I’m just not sure that those characters connect. I’m not sure that I see them as the same person. They don’t connect in the same way that – I do think they did a really beautiful job with Lady Danbury of, yes, this is how you move from A to B. This is a very, very plausible version of what this woman was like when she was young, and this is how she got that way. And I think if you went back and watched the first two seasons, you would probably feel like, yes, this all feels of a piece with what you later learn about her, even though it was done later, whereas I’m not sure that would happen with the queen.
TUCKER: I think – I will say, as a person who, as I’m recapping the series for Vulture, I have gone back, really doing my historical research, and I think the things that do track for Charlotte in past and present is those little hints we get at this relationship with George, the loneliness she feels around still loving this man but having him not be there, that does kind of track the young Charlotte that we have met. But I don’t think that there is a ton of room in those early seasons to really, like, ground that in a performance or really ground that in any sort of, like, written character decisions. And plus, I think it’s pretty clear that they were like, oh, Queen Charlotte’s really popular. Maybe we should just have a show about her.
HOLMES: Yeah.
TUCKER: Like, it’s quite clear that that wasn’t, like, a planned thing.
HOLMES: I mean, look; you can absolutely see how she wound up as somebody who wears her hair like that. I will say that. And I love that. The evolution of her hair in this – so beautiful.
TUCKER: I need to speak to a wig architect immediately.
YOUNG: (Laughter).
TUCKER: Like, how does she hold her head up is simply the question I have to have the answer to.
HOLMES: Yeah. I do want to ask you guys about one more thing before we go, which is whether you had any feelings about the little gay romance between the queen’s man and the king’s man.
TUCKER: I was delighted.
HOLMES: Were you really? Tell me about how you felt about it.
TUCKER: I was delighted in that, like, it doesn’t do a ton. They leave enough stuff at the end open that I’m like, are you guys going to do a Season 2 of prequel? Like, what’s going on here? I mean, the idea of the queen’s man and the king’s man having this little, you know, fiery little, oh, would you like to warm up in my quarters, which are, of course, nicer than yours because I’m the king’s man, and that’s how it goes? I was just like, yeah, this is what we needed. We needed these little gays trying to solve this problem and, like, running around with tiny dogs and on horseback. Like, I’m here for that.
YOUNG: I mean, did we need it? No. Did I hate it? Not really. It’s fine. Honestly, I’m kind of – I’m not invested in either of those characters enough to care if they fall in love. I just don’t care.
TUCKER: Right.
HOLMES: I appreciated the fact that, like, with the understanding that obviously their circumstances are what they are, there’s a lot of kind of actual lovey affection in that relationship, and they’re allowed to feel happy about loving each other and having this fondness. And so, although I agree that it doesn’t do a lot, I appreciated the fact that it’s not a misery story, which I think sometimes is where a period show goes with a queer story.
YOUNG: I mean, they’re obviously, you know, being quite private about this relationship. And it’s not something that, as far as we know, anyone else knows about. But I did appreciate that that isn’t really spotlighted. Like, there’s no we can’t let them see us or, like, you know, like, no glimpses around corners. Like, it’s just – they’re just having a private relationship, like, one that might look much the same if they were a heterosexual couple.
TUCKER: Yeah.
HOLMES: Right. And some of their conflict is not about being gay. Some of their conflict is about other things, you know, serving the king and the queen, and they disagree about who’s at fault and all that stuff.
YOUNG: I feel like they spend most of the series just kind of, like, matchmaking. There’s, like, a whole series at the top where – of shenanigans where they try to get the two of them together. And, like, that stuff I find kind of cute. But, to me, it’s kind of unrelated to their queerness, which I think is good, actually.
HOLMES: Right, right.
TUCKER: I was just like, yeah, OK, guys. Like, what can we do here? Brimsley’s a short top. Like, we love to see it.
(LAUGHTER)
TUCKER: Like, go off, king. Like, happy to be here. Does it matter?
HOLMES: I was going to say I love a short-tall kind of relationship, you know, a clash of differences.
TUCKER: Absolutely.
HOLMES: And yet they fall in love. That’s the real love across differences (laughter)…
TUCKER: Yeah.
HOLMES: …Is a short man and a tall man who find love.
All right. Well, we want to know what you think about “Queen Charlotte: A Bridgerton Story.” Find us at facebook.com/pchh. That brings us to the end of our show. Christina Tucker, Cate Young, thank you so much for being here. This was really fun.
TUCKER: Thank you.
YOUNG: Thank you.
HOLMES: This episode was produced by Hafsa Fathima and Mike Katzif and edited by Jessica Reedy. And Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. I’m Linda Holmes, and we’ll see you all tomorrow.
